Dunbar Takes New Trip on Extremism Train

by

Good grief. Cynthia Dunbar has demonstrated once again the kind of religious and political extremism that currently dominates the Texas State Board of Education — and the reason academic experts and classroom teachers should be guiding the process of revising curriculum standards for public schools, not politicians with personal agendas.

Speaking last week on a far-right talk show, The American View, (read more about the show here) Dunbar — a Richmond Republican representing a state board district that stretches from west of Houston to Austin — attacked public education and even the religious faith of people who don’t agree with her. She also repeated her infamous attack on President Obama as a terrorist sympathizer. And as the state board prepares to take a final vote next month on social studies curriculum standards for public schools, Dunbar suggested that supporters of separation of church and state don’t understand the Constitution and that the drafters of the First Amendment had no concerns “whatsoever” for the nonreligious.

Describing Dunbar as a “Christian with a brain” and a “Bible-believing Christian lady,” show host John Lofton said people who call themselves Christians (but who don’t agree with people like Dunbar) “need to be re-educated.” Appearing to share Dunbar’s contempt for public education, he also repeatedly attacked government-funded schools. Not only did Dunbar never challenge those statements, she reinforced them in her own comments.

On public education, Dunbar didn’t back away from her assertion that public schools are unconstitutional and even “tyrannical,” as she wrote in her book One Nation Under God. The Founders never intended for the country to have government-supported public schools, she argued. She also suggested — ironically, to say the least — that public education allows government to promote political agendas (such as “socialized health care”):

“There was never a tax-supported public entity. It was community education where the parents and the families came together and coalesced for the benefit of educating their society, which is a good and positive thing. . . . [James] Madison said error steeped in precedent leads to tyranny. When you allow something that was wrong to be repeated over and over and over, everybody accepts it as the norm, and it becomes the norm, and nobody even questions it. But once you allow something to become a tax-supported public entity, a governmental entity, you’re absolutely right, there’s no way it can not be political. And you just can’t keep that out of the classroom.”

Dunbar also suggested that the First Amendment does not prevent government from promoting religion. In fact, in one jumbled statement Dunbar’s suggested that the Founders who drafted and debated the First Amendment didn’t even intend to protect atheists:

“They didn’t want in any way religion to be chilled. They certainly didn’t want to have any concern whatsoever for the, quote-unquote, nonreligious, which is the new standard that we know, as far as seeing what the Supreme Court in promoting secularism, ultimately by inhibiting any religious instruction.”

And Dunbar’s contempt even for other people of faith — if they don’t share her particular religious views — was clear when she talked about supporters of sound science during the state board’s debate last year over what students in science classrooms should learn about evolution:

“Most of the time when we would hear people stand up to speak, it would start out something like this: ‘I am a person of faith, my faith defines me, HOWEVER.’ And then they would start making distinctions as to how their world view doesn’t impact every area of their life. Which in fact it does. What they don’t realize is that they have bought into a secular ideology, a secular humanist belief system.”

Dunbar also revisted an essay she wrote in 2008 attacking then-candidate Barack Obama shortly before the presidential election. In her essay, Dunbar charged that Obama as president would welcome another terrorist attack on America because he sympathized with the nation’s enemies and would use such an attack as an excuse to declare martial law and throw out the Constitution. Speaking on Lofton’s show, Dunbar focused more on home-grown terrorism this time:

“There’s no question that there’s documentation that he in fact has sympathies with people like Bill Ayers and others that clearly we would call terorristic threats.”

She went on to claim that the Homeland Security Department believes that people who oppose abortion and support gun rights under the Second Amendment are the real terrorist threats to America today.

You can listen to Lofton’s interview with Dunbar here.

52 Responses to “Dunbar Takes New Trip on Extremism Train”

  1. James F Says:

    To quote Ozzy:

    ALL ABOOOOOARD, HA HA HA HA!

  2. David Says:

    I guess I’ll be applying for a “grant” for a privatized (yay free market!) re-education camp in which I will use the horrible “secular humanist” version of history to make my subjects sick of liberal ideology and driving them to God.

    What I want to see is for Gov. Rick “Jefferson Davis” Perry to get pinned down on what he thinks of these kooks.

  3. John Lofton Says:

    Appreciate your mention of the Dunbar interview. Hope your readers will visit our site for more interviews, stories from a Christian/Constitutional point of view — the view upon which our country was founded in the early 1600s. And speaking of President Obama, I assume you saw the recent news stories reporting that with no trial, no evidence presented, no rule-of-law applied, he has “authorized” the “targeted killing”(murder) of a U.S. ciitzen in Yemen because this citizen is, supposedly, a “terrorist.” I look forward to your upcoming denunciation of Mr. Obama for this murderous act of “extremism.”

    John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com
    Communications Director, Institute On The Constitution
    Host, The American View Radio Show
    Recovering Republican
    JLof@aol.com

  4. Edd Doerr Says:

    Lofton interviews Dunbar! Ugh! Years ago I debated Lofton several times on WAMU-FM in Washington. He fits right in with the SBOE gang. For a while he was religion editor of the Washington Times, the ultrahyperconservative daily owned by poohbahs of Sun Myung Moon’s Unification Church, but he was too goofy even for them. It was typical of Lofton to greet people by asking “Are you saved?” One wag has said that people like Dunbar, McLeroy and Loften make her wish that contraception could be made retroactive.

  5. Velitar Says:

    And speaking of President Obama, I assume you saw the recent news stories reporting that with no trial, no evidence presented, no rule-of-law applied, he has “authorized” the “targeted killing”(murder) of a U.S. ciitzen in Yemen because this citizen is, supposedly, a “terrorist.” I look forward to your upcoming denunciation of Mr. Obama for this murderous act of “extremism.”

    Should I gather from your final use of scare quotes that you are not yourself troubled by this?

  6. PHarvey Says:

    John Lofton Said –
    “…he has “authorized” the “targeted killing”(murder) of a U.S. ciitzen in Yemen because this citizen is, supposedly, a “terrorist.””

    Hey John, I thought you radical right wing extremist types were all for killing terrorists on the spot, especilly Anwar al-Awlaki who is described by the Rep. Jane Harman, chairwoman of the House of Representatives Homeland Security Subcommittee on Intelligence as the #1 terrorist threat against the United States.

    Wednesday, 7 April 2010
    WASHINGTON (Reuters) – The Obama administration has authorized operations to capture or kill a U.S.-born Muslim cleric based in Yemen, who is described by a key lawmaker as Americas’s top terrorist threat, officials said on Tuesday.

    The decision to add Anwar al-Awlaki, of al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, to the target list followed a National Security Council review prompted by his status as a U.S. citizen.

    Officials said Awlaki directly threatened the United States. “Awlaki is a proven threat,” said a U.S. official, speaking on condition of anonymity. “He’s being targeted.”

    Rep. Jane Harman, chairwoman of the House of Representatives Homeland Security Subcommittee on Intelligence, described Awlaki as “probably the person, the terrorist, who would be terrorist No. 1 in terms of threat against us.”

    They want him dead because he is out of reach of US Law and would love to set off a dirty bomb or biological weapon in a major US city.

    You right wingers called Obama soft on terrorists. Sure doesn’t sound like it to me.

    John, tell me, must you always tell half truths and twist facts? Where I come from, a half truth is a lie.

    And isn’t lying a very unChristian thing to do, John?

  7. Bill C Says:

    @John Lofton

    Just to refute your assertions, John. There is no Christian/Constitutional point of view. There is one or the other.

    The theocracy colonies that were established in the early 1600s were part of the British Empire, but they were not the United States of America, which is our country.

    We were fortunate that the post-Enlightenment authors of the US Constitution, who were students of history, understood that establishing a state religion and bloody religious conflicts are harmful to the survival of a democratic republic. We were fortunate that they wrote “no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.” and “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;”

    Your dreams of an American theocracy will continue to be opposed by patriotic Americans who value our Constitution.

  8. Lane Says:

    Mr. Lofton,

    Thank you for having the courage to post here. However, I must respectfully disagree with your interpretation of the history of the United States. As you are no doubt aware, life in the American colonies in the early 1600s was not under the Constitutional republic system created much later, near the turn of the 19th century, but rather under the divine right of kings and their Grace the royal family of the English crown. Further, as a Texan, my native state was not primarily settled by English religious dissidents fleeing the Church of England, but rather by Spanish colonists moving in to the ancestral lands of several First People’s tribes, who bore no resemblance to the society you envision. My own ancestors are more recent transplants than the early 1600s, arriving in the middle of the 19th century from Germany and Ireland, fleeing poverty and the staid institutions of Europe for a fresh start in the New World.

    As such, I feel little, if any, loyalty to the hyperidealized romantic version of the American Colonies you paint, and my own view of the Constitution is somewhat tempered by the evil, liberal legal education I received at that bastion of forward thought and progressivism, Baylor University. Still, I respect that others disagree with me and that you might wish to discuss the matter further. I look forward to your rejoinder.

    Yours in Odin, the High Father.
    Lane, J.D.
    Cantankerous Upstart Blogger, Registered Miscreant, General Ne’er-Do-Well

  9. Coragyps Says:

    Christian/Constitutional point of view — the view upon which our country was founded in the early 1600s

    Mr Lofton, have you been getting your history from Dr McLeroy? They taught me, back in Arkansas a half-century ago, that the US Constitution was written in the late 1700s. That’s a while after 1620……..

    And note: God/gods fail to get mentioned in our constitution. There might be a reason for that.

  10. Art Harris Says:

    Just goes to show how our liberal history distorts truth. Those of us educated in the horrible government-supported schools never suspected that our country was founded in the early 1600s!

  11. eric Says:

    Hope your readers will visit our site for more interviews, stories from a Christian/Constitutional point of view — the view upon which our country was founded in the early 1600s.

    If you want to return Texas to the “view upon which it was founded,” in the 1600s, wouldn’t that be a Catholic/Spanish Monarchy point of view? What a hoot.

  12. David Says:

    John Lofton brings his intellectual weight to bear to bring a whole new meaning to the word “kooky-dooky”.

  13. trog69 Says:

    Right on, PHarvey. The only reason morons like Mr. Lofton complain about Obama’s foreign policy is because he’s Barack Obama, with a (D), and not John McCain or Saint Sarah.

  14. Shaun Says:

    John Lofton said: he has “authorized” the “targeted killing”(murder) of a U.S. ciitzen in Yemen because this citizen is, supposedly, a “terrorist.” I look forward to your upcoming denunciation of Mr. Obama for this murderous act of “extremism.”

    Did you think you would ever see the day when extreme right-wing loons would hate an AMERICAN President so much that they would actually stand up against killing a known terrorist just because he was American Born.

  15. Karen Says:

    Re: John Lofton’s comment… When there are videos of an individual calling on like-minded individuals to attack America and her citizens, then that person is – by definition – a terrorist. Obama is more justified to call for the killing of this hateful American citizen than George W. Bush was in his declaration of war on Iraq. And while both situations are horrifying to sane individuals, your point regarding Obama has *nothing* to do with the topic of your interview of Cynthia Dunbar and I am confused as to why you brought it up at all, unless you are attempting to distract from the inaccuracy of your facts regarding the separation of church and state devised by our founding fathers.

  16. Velitar Says:

    @Lofton, PHarvey:

    Do either of you support due process in general, or only when your party of choice happens to be out of power?

  17. David Says:

    I’m glad Lofton and others (I hope) are reading this post. If they’re totally shameless liars and hypocrites, there’s no hope. If they’ve got a glimmer of internal honesty, there’s hope.

    Trog, were you talking about John “the fundamentals of the economy are sound…” McCain? Now HE’LL go down in history.

  18. PHarvey Says:

    Velitar Says:
    “@Lofton, PHarvey:

    Do either of you support due process in general, or only when your party of choice happens to be out of power?”

    Of course I support due process. But due process only works if the criminal is on American soil. Anwar al-Awlaki is in Yemen and completely out of reach of the US judicial system. Obama issued orders to either kill or capture him, but the odds of him being captured are slim.

    So if he is captured and brought to the US one of two things will happen.

    1. He will be tried in a US court of law and sent to Levenworth. And the far right will say he should have been sent to Gitmo as an enemy combatant.

    2. He will be labeled an enemy combatant and sent to Gitmo and tried in a Military Tribunal. And the far right will claim he was denied his constitutional rights and should be tried in the US Judicail system.

    So either way, the far right will find something nasty to say and won’t be pleased. But it is a mute point as he won’t allow himself to be taken alive.

    So does anyone want to wait until he manages to complete an attack on a major American City to kill him?

  19. trog69 Says:

    Sorry, David, though you were close; I meant the “Non-Maverik(sic) Sen. John McCain, not that guy who ran for pretzeldent.

  20. Charles Says:

    Well, I don’t know about y’all other folks here, but I would like to extend a hand of appreciation and congratulations to Ms. Dunbar and Mr. Lofton. I love it when high-profile members of the far right talk such ridiculous nonsense that even the common goober in Bug Tussle Unincorporated knows something is wrong with it.

  21. Clark Says:

    The rantings of Lame Duck Dunbar and this Lofton person are as myopic as they are shrill.

    Sure: If you take the legalistic (and wrong) approach that we are somehow bound to the Original Intent of the authors of the U.S. Constitution and that we must never recognize any change of conditions over two-and-a-quarter centuries, then you must also recognize that we, in Texas, are in a special circumstance, because we had our own revolution and our own Republic that melded successfully (eventually) as one of the United States. We, then, have two sets of Original Intent. Dunbar and her ilk fail to honor the Founders of the Republic of Texas. Look no further than the Texas Declaration of Independence.

    Public schools “unconstitutional”? One of the reasons that Texans rebelled against Mexico as stated in the Texas Declaration was the Mexican government’s failure “to establish any public system of education, although possessed of almost boundless resources, (the public domain,) and although it is an axiom in political science, that unless a people are educated and enlightened, it is idle to expect the continuance of civil liberty, or the capacity for self government. ”

    Similarly, the Texan founders wrote they rebelled because the Mexican government “denies us the right of worshipping the Almighty according to the dictates of our own conscience, by the support of a national religion, calculated to promote the temporal interest of its human functionaries…”

    Most aware Texans these days know that “temporal interest of human functionaries” is being advanced by Dunbar, McLeroy et. al. to the detriment of the children of Texas.

  22. David Says:

    Charles, how’d you figure me out?

    Almost unnoticed today was the announcement that development in E. Jerusalem would at least temporarily stop, and the Palestinians indicated a willingness to enter into talks. Maybe there’s real movement there.

    Also, I tried to access an MSNBC News page, “Walmart facing huge class action lawsuit…” but it was censored or something.
    Never happened before.

    Anyway, these goofs are having daylight streamed into their crypts. Reckon they’re like vampires?

  23. Charles Says:

    After looking at their website closely, I am pretty sure The American View people are Christian reconstructionists solidly in the groove of Rushdoony. The major clues are:

    1) Their positions

    2) Their Presbyterian roots

    3) Their proud display of a classic Christian reconstructionist logo and web link

    These are the SS of the Christian nation movement. I do sincerely hope the FBI is keeping a close watch on these people.

  24. JohnW Says:

    I wonder how Ms Dunbar, Lowe, et al, like what Thomas Paine said in ‘Common Sense’: “As to religion, I hold it to be the indispensable duty of government to protect all conscientious professors thereof, and I know of no other business which government hath to do therewith. Let a man throw aside that narrowness of soul, that selfishness of principle, which
    the niggards of all professions are so unwilling to part with, and he will be at once delivered of his fears on that head. Suspicion is thy companion of mean souls, and the bane of ell good society. For myself, I fully and conscientiously believe that it is the will of the Almighty that there should be a diversity of religious opinions among us. It affords a larger field for our Christian kindness; were we all of one way of thinking, our religious dispositions would want matter for probation; and on this liberal principle I look on the various denominations among us to be like children of the same family, differing only in what is called their Christian names.”

    Or what he wrote in ‘the Age of Reason’:” I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any other church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.
    All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christion, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human
    inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolise power and profit.”

  25. Rocket Mike Says:

    Lofton and Dunbar fear public education because it presents the truth and refutes their irrational make believe.

  26. Webster Says:

    John Lofton?

    John you still stinging from when Frank Zappa slapped you and Novak around?

    search: zappa cnn crossfire

    It was 1986 when Zappa said we were headed toward a fascist theocracy and you and Novak mocked him. Man that was surreal. That was a few years after Moon had set up shop in DC and the Republicans were claiming God/Jesus as their running mate. Lofton was working for the “messianic” theocract, Moon, being told off by Zappa.

    John, did you ever repent for helping Moon shove our political system right – moving it more in tune with Moon’s theocratic messianic vision? That’s the same Moon who claims to be the messiah, says Jesus failed and now serves Moon’s dead son in the afterlife. That’s the same movement that teaches that Jesus and Muhammad bow down before Moon.

    That’s why I can never take people like John seriously.

    That whole editorial independence thing at the WT was a huge ruse. Besides it not being true, you simply don’t have to tell a paper what to do if you hire people like Lofton and Pruden to push the nation the direction you wish. Just hand them a check, wind them up and let’em go.

    Far all you need to know about why Moon created the WT do a video search: “cult and the media”

  27. Webster Says:

    “”Far all you need to know about why Moon created the WT do a video search: “cult and the media””

    shouod read: “cults and the media”

  28. Chris Campbell Says:

    PHarvey Says:

    PHarvey commented April 26, 2010 at 1:32 pm
    “John Lofton Said –
    “…he has “authorized” the “targeted killing”(murder) of a U.S. ciitzen in Yemen because this citizen is, supposedly, a “terrorist.””

    Hey John, I thought you radical right wing extremist types were all for killing terrorists on the spot, especilly Anwar al-Awlaki who is described by the Rep. Jane Harman, chairwoman of the House of Representatives Homeland Security Subcommittee on Intelligence as the #1 terrorist threat against the United States.”

    Harvey, you show a shocking and surprising ignorance which borders on embarrasing. Not all “right wingers” nor Christians support the “war on terror”.Even Dispensationalist Baptists have anti-war voices like Laurence Vance and Chuck Baldwin.Also, many Catholics have joined in agaisnt the “war”, including many from the ranks of SSPX, Romanian Catholic Bishops,etc.

    Lofton hass spoken out for past 5 yrs at his site and radio program, along with Mr.Peroutka, against meddling in the Middle East,etc.Might want to do some research, would not take long..

  29. PHarvey Says:

    Chris Campbell Said – “Harvey, you show a shocking and surprising ignorance which borders on embarrasing. Not all “right wingers” nor Christians support the “war on terror”.”

    Chris,

    It is a mostly facetious remark – not to be taken literally or completely seriously. I used it in this context as a generalization for humor, satire and irony to poke fun at John Lofton. And although directionally correct it is obviously not inclusive to everyone on the right.

    I’m sure you recognize humor, satire and irony when you read it, don’t you?

  30. David Says:

    Chris, I think PH was being supportive of Pres. Obama, not seriously coming from a right wing perspective. Maybe I’m wrong, maybe I need to read it again.

    There are a few “Pat Buchanan” conservatives against our foreign entanglements.
    Most of the conservatives and radical religious right started opposing the war as soon as Pres. Obama was elected and started having success killing Al Qaeda leadership.

    The Sore Loser Party has made a pact to oppose the Pres. on EVERY front on which he gives them the slightest opportunity. I think he’s taking the best route possible considering the politics to get us done in Af/Pak and out of there.
    I sincerely believe that.
    If I could make it happen we’d be out of there yesterday. In fact, we would have come home years ago and never gone into Iraq.
    Awlaki is not just any American citizen. He is a self-identified enemy of this country who is trying to kill Americans. Taking him out is a matter of self-defense. We have due process domestically, but police are authorized to use deadly force when necessary.
    We need to quit having our foreign policy, the CIA and the Pentagon being hijacked to protect the major oil corporations and other corporate pigs in the name of “vital national interest”. This has happened time and again since WWII and it’s the real reason there is an “islamic radicalism” in the first place.
    Right now the issue is just being exploited by the racist, radical religious right, and the neocons. They don’t like Pres. Obama, and they don’t like the “godless” secular N-lovers who want to teach American History and legitimate science to our youth.
    That’s what this is all about.

  31. Ed S. Says:

    This is a great thread! Good discussion. Thanks John W. for the Thomas Paine quotes – it is amazing how relevant he can be even today.

    It is sad that we have fringe radicals like Dunbar and McLeroy involved in our education system. We need leaders that are focused on improving the schools and the educational process, rather than injecting their personal religious views into it. Our school system needs and deserves competent leadership. Listening to Dunbar’s views, I can’t help but think of the fundamentalist madrassas in the middle east that are churning out young men who have no clue as to how the world actually works, but live in a fantasy world created by their teacher/programmers. Just imagine how different life would be in the middle east if all kids of all faiths attended public schools together and were taught actual history and science in a religion-free environment.

    Our public school system is a fundamental strength of this country, in large part because it is (mostly) free of divisive religious or political viewpoints. I believe such a system is essential to a tolerant, peaceful society.

  32. Tom Wood Says:

    Do SBOE officials take an oath of office that requires them to promise to do the job with their best effort? The level of dishonesty by someone who would take such an important position in order to undermine public education is simply evil.

  33. R Smith Says:

    John Lofton’s comments regarding Obama’s authorization to murder a U.S. citizen was critical, not supportive. He would not have used the word “murder” had he agreed with the policy.

    And EVERYONE on any board of education is trying to shove something down someone’s throat, so to speak. Cynthia is no different in that respect. What does make her different, and so offensive to all of you, is that she isn’t trying to shove your humanism.

    Someone who undermines public education is called evil only by those who are blind to the evil of public education.

    Listen, America:

    Isaiah 30:9-15
    9For this is a rebellious people, false sons,
    Sons who refuse to listen
    To the instruction of the LORD;
    10Who say to the seers, “You must not see visions”;
    And to the prophets, “You must not prophesy to us what is right,
    Speak to us pleasant words,
    Prophesy illusions.
    11″Get out of the way, turn aside from the path,
    Let us hear no more about the Holy One of Israel.”

    12Therefore thus says the Holy One of Israel,
    “Since you have rejected this word
    And have put your trust in oppression and guile, and have relied on them,
    13Therefore this iniquity will be to you
    Like a breach about to fall,
    A bulge in a high wall,
    Whose collapse comes suddenly in an instant,
    14Whose collapse is like the smashing of a potter’s jar,
    So ruthlessly shattered
    That a sherd will not be found among its pieces
    To take fire from a hearth
    Or to scoop water from a cistern.”

    15For thus the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel, has said,
    “In repentance and rest you will be saved,
    In quietness and trust is your strength.”
    But you were not willing,

  34. David Says:

    R:
    God told me to resist Bible thumpers like you with all the breath of my being.
    If God were superstitious I’d have to say a magic incantation in the morning to start my car.
    Secular America has been a very healthy environment for Christianity, now ignorant dumba$$e$ like you want to ruin it.
    Go turn on your tv set and find that guy you watch, and call him up and buy a prayer hankie, or some super-colossal sacred anointment oil or something, and leave the educating up to the educated.

  35. trog69 Says:

    “Someone who undermines public education is called evil only by those who are blind to the evil of public education.”

    Rather than asking you to prove your assertion, why don’t you and yours just pull your kids out of public schools, and indoctrinate your children any way you see fit? Why does the religious right feel that it is their right to force everyone’s children to believe as they do, even if it means altering the facts to more closely mirror the way they wish things had been?

    Nevermind…I already answered the question.

  36. Ben Says:

    Cynthia is a loon. She has demonstrated that fact repeatedly. Liar, too.

  37. Joel Peterson Says:

    “Right on, PHarvey. The only reason morons like Mr. Lofton complain about Obama’s foreign policy is because he’s Barack Obama, with a (D), and not John McCain or Saint Sarah.”

    What is it that leftists are always accusing right-wingers of being? Oh, yeah, “ignorant.” Well, I gotta tell you, reading many of the comments left here, there might not be a more ignorant bunch of people on the planet than you folks. And I’m not even talking about your confusion regarding our Constitution and Founding.

    If you think John Lofton or any of the people who listen to his radio show are fans of John McCain, Sarah Palin, and their godless, socialist, war-mongering Republican cohorts, you my friend are a clueless moron.

    But far be it from me to bring a little perspective and understand to this fruitless conversation. You may all now continue to shoot darts in dark.

  38. forkboy1965 Says:

    Thank you JohnW for reminding us all of the importance of the words our founding fathers wrote across a variety of books, letters, etc.

    For whatever reason the religious right just cannot seem to get it through their collective heads that regardless of the religious beliefs of the founding fathers they clearly recognized the folly of the mixing of religion and state and thus gave us clear instruction in the constitution to not do such.

    One need only read the works such as you outlined to find fuller and more clear reasoning offered by those very men.

    However, reading and facts have hardly ever made any impression upon the religious right and, I might add, the bulk of the Republican Party, which so heartily embraces the far right. This, of course, goes far to explaining why the religious right (and to a lesser extent the Republican Party) so despises public education: they do not want an educated electorate.

    An educated electorate isn’t anywhere near as easy to control with superstition, lies and falsehoods.

  39. R Smith Says:

    forkboy1965: “This, of course, goes far to explaining why the religious right (and to a lesser extent the Republican Party) so despises public education: they do not want an educated electorate.”

    Almost fell out of my chair laughing. If you really think public schools do a good job of educating anybody, you’re beyond reason.

    trog69 “Rather than asking you to prove your assertion, why don’t you and yours just pull your kids out of public schools, and indoctrinate your children any way you see fit? Why does the religious right feel that it is their right to force everyone’s children to believe as they do, even if it means altering the facts to more closely mirror the way they wish things had been?”

    You think MY kids are in the sewer that is public school? I don’t THINK so! Why does the religious left (your religion is humanism, complete with your own bible and idols) feel that it is their right to force everyone’s children to believe as they do, even if it means altering the facts to more closely mirror the way they wish things ARE?

  40. David Says:

    Joel, I’ll look into this guy’s beliefs a little more. We’re very familiar with the right wing dingbats who have lately come to the “anti-imperialist” or “libertarian” philosophy now that B. Obama is president.
    We’re not very familiar with some of the far flung fringies who have had a consistent and coherent resistence to the Republicans.
    I’ll get back to you after I’ve studied up.

  41. trog69 Says:

    “…your religion is humanism, complete with your own bible and idols)…”

    Lemme guess; Evolution is a bad word at your house, amirite? If so, I hope your kids sue your pants off when they find out how badly they’ve been educated.

  42. Cytocop Says:

    The above postings from R. Smith and Joel Peterson confirm the contents of the book, Republican Gomorrah: Inside The Movement That Shattered The Party.

    R. Smith: I take it you are Christian. If so, why are you quoting from the “Old Testament”? I thought the new and improved “New Testament” was your thing.

    You began your quote with Isaiah 30:9-15:
    9″For this is a rebellious people, false sons,
    Sons who refuse to listen
    To the instruction of the LORD;”

    The “instruction of the Lord” probably refers to the 613 mitzvot of the so-called Old Testament, the text with which Christians have such a love/hate relationship. Most mitzvot are rejected by Christianity anyway, such as the laws of kashrut and the keeping of Shabbat, for example. In addition, some of the mitzvot aren’t even applicable anymore as they relate to the temple and temple sacrifices, the Romans having destroyed the temple in 70 CE.

    I could go on and on but it’s futile to try to communicate with people so entrenched with their ideas.

  43. David Says:

    Cytocop, I like learning stuff. Thanks.

  44. Tom Wood Says:

    The public school system is performing a necessary public service. If you are unhappy with the quality, then the answer is more funding for better teachers and facilities. Someone who tries to destroy this service from the inside has the personality of a traitor.

    That level of dishonesty is simply evil.

  45. David Says:

    This is what they’ve done. Just like FEMA, the FDA, the SEC, Dept. of the Interior (the ones that were supposed to be collecting our fees from the oil and mining interests, but in fact were having drug-fueled orgies with them), and countless other necessary government agencies under G. Bush’s watch.

    The problems with public schools are the responsibility of conservative as well as liberal hooey, (see “A Clockwork Orange”), but the problem now is that these wackos are standing in the way of the problem solvers.

    An educated citizenry is a matter of economic sustainability as well as national security. We must have public schools.
    We need to fix the problems.
    These people need to get OUT OF THE WAY!!!!!!!!

  46. forkboy1965 Says:

    R Smith Says:

    “Almost fell out of my chair laughing. If you really think public schools do a good job of educating anybody, you’re beyond reason.”

    Odd…. I managed to put together a succinct comment, which included proper grammar and spelling and I attended public schools. I might remind you that your very own George W. Bush attended the Ivy League and quite private university system and we see how well that turned out.

  47. Charles Says:

    They are what I call Old Testament Christians. They forget all the red lettering at the back of the Bible and spend their lives in the Old Testament.

  48. trog69 Says:

    David, they will never voluntarily get out of the way. That is the sad truth of the matter. No matter what we say or do, they will never stop trying to force their beliefs on the rest of us. Obviously because they’ve been brainwashed into fighting for the very corporate structure that has been robbing them and us blind for a couple of centuries now. ( That’s just in the US; Of course, religion and the wealthy have worked hand in hand elsewhere for many centuries before the US even came into being. )

    I know I’m talking to the choir on this point, but I grow more disgusted as each new assault on reason is begun.

  49. Tom Wood Says:

    The far right is all emotion and no reason. But it works. We need to find a way to make reason emotionally appealing. A ‘the enemy within’ approach might work by asserting that the irrational endanger the nation. Which they do.

  50. Cytocop Says:

    Thanks, David. In R. Smith’s posting, I was quite astonished at being admonished by a Christian to observe Halakha (Jewish Law). That’s a new one to me.

    As for rebelling against God? The Christians rebelled against God when they rejected Kashrut and Shabbat. They even had the audacity to move Shabbat from Saturday to Sunday – which neither God nor the Christian God Jesus commanded. So R. Smith has a heck of a lot of chutzpah to preach at us.

    Oh but wait! I’m just “shooting darts in the dark” here. Ha Ha Ha.

  51. Ben Says:

    Here is one of John Lofton’s recent Facebook posts:

    “News” Item: “Country singer Chely Wright makes history as first mainstream country artist to come out and publicly declare she’s a lesbian.” Well, she shd have shut up, been ashamed! Call me old-fashioned but I liked the Good Old Days when sex perverts stayed deep in the closet, shut up about their sin, felt bad abt it, knew they were evil and knew that God hated them unless they repented!

  52. David Says:

    Dear Mr. Lofton,
    That train has already left the station.

    The only place that “scandal” is occuring is in the right wing religious and political circles. That is because those groups appeal to a particular type of “deviant behavior”.
    That is people who get a charge from doing something that is secret, taboo, dirty, naughty, etc. and fooling the ignorant sheep who imagine their leaders and spokespersons to be paragons of supermorality.
    What’s hilarious about that is that the Bible hammers the point home again and again that all human beings are susceptible to moral failure, and often it’s the leaders that fail the worst. Apparently the people who put all their trust in the Bible never read it.
    This sort of “deviant behavior” is a function of power. The little boy or girl feels empowered by the naughty secret that they hold, and these people are fundamentally emotionally arrested at an immature level. The taboo is just too tempting. At the same time, the secret is a devastating burden that destroys lives.
    One reason that we have this current explosion of self-righteousness on the right, is that temptation is now only a mouse-click away, and these people succumb to the siren call in the privacy of their own bedroom, then are racked by guilt and go out the next day on a rampage to fight against the agents of the devil who are , well, be-deviling them.
    Chely Wright and Jennifer Knapp should be applauded for answering the call of their conscience to come out in front of God and everyone and admit who they are.
    The truth will set you free.
    Whether what they do is a sin, or how big a sin it is relative to other sins, is a matter for God to decide. Can we all agree on that, or are you taking over His role too?
    What an idiot.

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